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"Successful Britain" to come to Tallinn

Check out British news where a half of 18-26 year olds are considering emigrating for work. Lets here the smart-ss comments now. Reply to the comment answer
~@AR and other smug types [21.03.2011, 04:31]
You mean the 'news' (actually press release of randstad, a job seeking agency) where is stated that "8 in 10 Britons considering emigrating to New Zealand"???

Or do you mean the press release by job site 'Escape the City' where is stated that "some 70pc of UK executives say they are considering moving to more exotic locations to work and live, a study of 2,650 workers has showed" (source: Telegraph)?

Do you blieve in such adverts and do you believe that Estonia would be one of the "exotic locations to work and live"?
~knut albers [21.03.2011, 14:49]
Try the Mail.
~@ka [21.03.2011, 14:57]
I do not know which article you are referring there, but I found something interesting:

"Britons, apart from in China, are the 615,500 in Australia and the 527,500 in the U.S. Two-way migration between Britain and Australia has always been high and has increased with cheaper flights."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-398856/One-young-Britons-want-emigrate.html#ixzz1HEyvpqpY
~knut albers [21.03.2011, 15:33]
I don't understand, am I supposed to be somehow disturbed by this? How is this a new phenomenon? Brits have been emigrating in large numbers since the days of Empire, whether it was to the Americas, Australia, or further afield. Just like the people in the article, they did it for better opportunities elsewhere. Somehow it hasn't had severe consequences on the UK's progress, so I'm genuinely puzzled what this proves.
~AR [21.03.2011, 15:47]
It proves that the UK has a high influx of individuals that replaces the export of individuals, contrary to Estonia.
~knut albers [21.03.2011, 18:34]
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@ Knut

I was asking the original poster what his comment proved, not responding to your post. He seemed to be implying that because there is emigration (or at least desire) to emigrate from the UK, somehow that equates with the Estonian situation. My point was there has always been emigration from the UK so what's the big deal. Reply to the comment answer
~AR [21.03.2011, 20:11]
I dont know what the OPs point was but it is interesting that so many young people in the uk want to move somewhere else for work when (i believe there are 2.5 million unemployed now, but correct me if i am wrong) so many eastern europeans have flooded the country and are working there now. I dont know how many estonians are in Uk but i keep hearing about all the poles.
~Worker [22.03.2011, 08:31]
AR, I see.
~knut albers [22.03.2011, 13:51]
@ Knut

Knut, I just noticed, the article you linked to is dated August 2006. This would indicate that the phenomena of young people considering going abroad for work is nothing new. As I said, emigration has always been a part of the British psyche.
~AR [22.03.2011, 15:07]
Immigration too, AR. Unlike in Estonia.

In any case, it is the obligation of the original poster to provide their source they are referring to.
~knut albers [22.03.2011, 16:30]
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Hey - I am "considering" buying a Ferrari. But I probably won't. Reply to the comment answer
~smugtwat [21.03.2011, 23:37]
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I think it's in the semantics. The first post quotes "half of 18-26 year olds are considering emigrating for work", whereas I suspect it's more true to say "half of 18-26 year olds are considering emigrating TO work". Nothing wrong with 18-26 year olds travelling to see new countries and picking up some working cultures whilst they are at it. It's a good thing to have on the CV and makes them more employable when up for an executive role. Reply to the comment answer
~toffeeslot [22.03.2011, 13:50]
Indeed. Interestingly, the third country of choice after the traditional English-speaking countries of Australia and Canada is... China! If a substantial segment of these young people do go there and pick up some experience from this market or open up new chains of communication for the UK, it's not a bad thing at all.
~AR [22.03.2011, 15:21]
Interesting. People leave Estonia for work and its all slagging off the country but those of us doing it is 'good for the CV'. Those going to China are f---ing english teachers with a four week training certificate who come back with NO useful experience to speak off. Just ask your local council.
~Emmigrant [23.03.2011, 00:20]
Whatever Emigrant. What experience those people get or don't get in China is their problem. And it's certainly better experience than an Estonian university grad washing dishes at a pub in Dublin.

But at the end of the day, it's NOT a problem for the UK as a whole, because as has been pointed out already:-

a) Brits have always emigrated and

b) there is inward immigration, eg from Australia and Eastern Europe inter alia, to compensate.

But it IS a big problem for Estonia because as Knut pointed out, there is no significant inward traffic to compensate.

I suppose your next retort will be that it's not such a problem for Estonia. Well the President would obviously disagree with you, since he pleaded with expats to return

"Ilves Calls on Estonians to 'Repatriate Talent'"


The government would obviously disagree because they've decided to fund "Talentid Koju" with the intention of getting Estonians back:

"“Bring the Talent Home,” a government-funded project that aims to create a business network with the Estonian diaspora...


with the grand hope of bringing back... [drumroll please]... 25 EMIGRANTS

Not only that, get this, I cracked myself up reading this, Estonian Air will give 25-50% DISCOUNTS to expatriate Estonians who are considering returning home.


BTW I love the last paragraph from the article

"The website has so far attracted 453 users and 94 employers. But with 20,000 visits from 92 countries (beside Estonia, mostly the UK, Germany and the US) to the website, just 152 people have actually applied for a job."

When I start reading about such ridiculous and pathetic attempts to pull expat Brits back from abroad, then maybe I'll worry about emigration. Until then, then yes, as far as anybody going abroad to work, it's a question of hopefully improving his CV but whether he does or not, it's NOT GOING TO HAVE SIGNIFICANT REPERCUSSIONS ON THE COUNTRY. It's a different scenario in Estonia. Get it? Comprende? Do you compute? It is actually possible that two different countries can have two completely different situations.

I do hope you'll continue, because it's great fun pulling all these laughable stories off the net to respond.
~AR [23.03.2011, 01:59]
Keep talking your nonsense AR as the Poles and Slovaks, as well as Pakistanis and Afghans take over your streets, cities and finally villages. Almost a day cant go by without an article in the British press about the state of immigration in the UK and its effects on crime, the social benefit system, education etc. That is why the BNP party is getting more and more support. Way to go UK!
~Poles and Pakistanis [23.03.2011, 10:33]
AR, check out the article in today's Mail about British math teachers. Spoiler alert: They are rated the second worst in the world. Maybe they should be retrained in our primary schools over here.
~Math for Dummies [23.03.2011, 10:51]
@ Poles and Pakistanis

Don't worry, at the rate Estonia is going at losing its workforce, it will be forced to start importing Pakistanis and Afghans in the next 10 or 15 years. Or at best, people from the CIS countries, thereby increasing the Russian-speaking population.

@ Math for Dummies

They don't need to be retrained in your primary schools because your lovely country is exporting your brightest and youngest over here anyway. If it gets too serious, we can always get some bright East Europeans to retrain as teachers. Just like we can always get doctors and nurses from other countries. Does Estonia have the same luxury?

And seriously, start quoting a reputable paper, will you, the Mail is a fright-rag aimed at the blue-rinse brigade of the Home Countries who think we still have an empire.
~AR [23.03.2011, 16:10]
'If it gets too serious, we can always get some bright East Europeans to retrain as teachers.'

At least then your country may have a chance to climb in the global education rankings!

'it will be forced to start importing Pakistanis and Afghans in the next 10 or 15 years. Or at best, people from the CIS countries'

Dont worry AR, there's plenty of room for all those emigrating Brits here, so we dont need the Pakistanis or CIS workers.

'start quoting a reputable paper'

I know the paper's reputation but unless such stories can be proven factually wrong then it doesnt matter which paper they are printed in.
~Math for Dummies [23.03.2011, 17:46]
Your concerns about the British education system have been noted but as has been pointed out by other commentators, there is always going to be a ready supply of well-educated people from other countries, Estonia included, who will take up the slack. Good for our country, bad for theirs.

And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how well-educated young Estonian people are, AS LONG AS THEY FEEL THEY HAVE TO LEAVE THEIR COUNTRY FOR BETTER OPPORTUNITIES. Let me repeat that: YOUNG PEOPLE, THE PRIME BENEFICIARIES OF THIS MARVELLOUS EDUCATION SYSTEM ARE LEAVING THE COUNTRY TO SPEND A CONSIDERABLE PART OF THEIR WORKING LIVES IN RICHER WEST EUROPEAN COUNTRIES RATHER THAN STAYING AND BUILDING UP THEIR OWN. Throw in the fact that as Ameeriklane has often pointed out, there are something like 5000 less students in the school system just this year alone (and it's a continuing trend), and you are facing a severe shortage of labour in the coming years, especially if you're looking to build a knowledge-based economy. Do you actually have something to say about that or do you rate the quality of maths teachers in the UK of more pressing concern? Or unlike the President, the government and a significant part of the public, do you feel it's not a problem?

"there's plenty of room for all those emigrating Brits here so we dont need the Pakistanis or CIS workers.,"

Ha ha ha ha. Fantasyland. You can't even get the Bulgarians or Romanians to come. Hell, even Africans fleeing wretched conditions don't give Estonia a second glance.
~AR [23.03.2011, 20:00]
Yes, AR, many young people here do go to richer countries to work and guess what? They also often return after a number of years. I have been watching this happen now for 20 years already. I have a number of friends who worked abroad for some time and now they are here. Many of them earned enough money to buy a home or start a business. Not a bad deal, eh?

About Fantasyland, come here and see how many of your compatriots (and other western foreigners) live here. You would probably be unpleasantly surprised.

Btw, the number of students you qouted is WAY off mark. In Tallinn alone, the number of first grade pupils for next academic year will be 3800.
~Math for Dummies [23.03.2011, 20:59]
"They also often return after a number of years. "

Really? Statistics please, not personal anecdotes, since you seem to be so hot on "factual accounts" from papers such as the Mail. And not just statistics that SOME returned, but that they returned in SUFFICIENT numbers to at least partly offset the outward migration. But I suspect this is not the case, or Ilves wouldn't be pleading with offshore Eestlased to please please come back, and the govt wouldn't be sinking money into programs like "Talentid Koju" and they certainly wouldn't consider the return of a meagre 25 emigrants a resounding success.

"Many of them earned enough money to buy a home or start a business."

I don't want to get dragged into a side discussion about your friends, but I will say that that may have been true in the past when there were huge price differentials between Estonia and the West and you could realistically save enough money to buy a home or business by doing some crap job in the West, but that is not the case any more. So that is not such a draw any more. Plus on leaving you would lose social benefits that have been accumulated after some years of work - in fact from May 1 East Europeans will have exactly the same access to social benefits as their Western EU compatriots working in a foreign EU country. So there would be even less incentive to leave, after having paid into the system and now entitled to the benefits.

"Btw, the number of students you qouted is WAY off mark. In Tallinn alone, the number of first grade pupils for next academic year will be 3800."

??? I'm really puzzled about this statement and am starting to question your debating capacity. I quoted "here are something like 5000 LESS students in the school system just this year alone" and you respond that there are 3800 first grade students in Tallinn next year as if that proves anything. How does your response contradict anything I said? How does 3800 first graders in Tallin next year refute what I said unless you can show in context that it is an INCREASE since the previous year AND can demonstrate this trend applies to the rest of the country. For someone attacking the UK math education system, you seem to have a weak grasp of the relationships between numbers. If I say there was X number LESS this year, and you answer no, you're wrong, because there was Y-number this year, WITHOUT providing Z-number, i.e. the figure for the previous year, then your comment is meaningless.

In any case I was quoting offhand from memory from one of Ameeriklane's comments, since he's the stats man and he's spookily good and finding the numbers. Here is his actual comment, from December last year:

"Meanwhile, the number of children studying in grades 1-12 dropped by 6,000 people between September of this year and September of the previous year. "


So I was wrong, it wasn't 5000 it was actually 6000.
~AR [23.03.2011, 21:46]
Regarding the temporary nature of Estonian emigration, read section 2.3 of the following report: http://digar.nlib.ee/digar/show?id=47678

My bad about the education numbers. However, as for declining numbers of students being a continuing trend, I saw an article last year about the next 5 year projection of student numbers at the gymnasium level will start going up in 2014 or 2015.
~Math for Dummies [23.03.2011, 23:48]
Fair point regarding the source but I spotted the flaw right away on the second page: "This paper presents new evidence from a unique survey of firm managers on migration patterns in Estonia in 2007."

In other words, this data was compiled just before the economic crunch hit. Given the entirely new set of circumstances since then, the "internal devaluation", the high unemployment rates, I would argue that much of this data is redundant. The survey of Estonians in section 2.3 as to how long they planned to stay abroad is dated even earlier - 2006: given the buoyant state of the Estonian economy at that point, I'm not surprised that such a small proportion had considered leaving permanently or for a significant period of time. But can you honestly say, that these trends were sustainable given what's happened to the country in the four or five years since? Remember, these were only INTENTIONS, not actual historical data, meaning once things started going downhill at home, they may have had to change their intentions pretty damn quickly.
~AR [24.03.2011, 00:55]
The info is a bit dated but I had this report in mind because I used it in a project a couple of years ago and it is more authoratative than a newspaper article as the company wanted 'harder' info.

I agree the trends are not sustainable and that is one of the things I curse all the political parties here for not addressing. Why they have their heads buried in the sand over this issue is a total mystery to me.

Regarding intentions, a recent article on bbn talked about the future intentions of young workers here and people jumped all over that like it was God's given truth carved in stone. This is more like predicting the weather. There are tools out there to make forecasts more accurate, but the weather people are still wrong half the time.
~Intentions [24.03.2011, 08:29]
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@ smugtwat LOL. Reply to the comment answer
~whyteay [05.04.2011, 14:36]
LOL - a second time, I hadn't seen the 'answer' icon, since I too am a smug twat!
~whyteay [05.04.2011, 14:38]
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~rtgryh [08.04.2011, 19:49]
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