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Ansip on CNN: people ask us why we help “rich” Greece

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"He added the Greek rescue package was a loan, "not a bail out." "They have to pay back those (loans)," he said. "And they also have to pay interest.""

On what planet this guy is living? Everybody knows that Greece will never be able to pay back those loans in full, not to speak about interest.

"(...) they cannot understand why we have to have all this."

People among the Eurozone "cannot understand why we have to have all this" and at the moment it seems pretty much about the majority of MEPS vs. the people in europe.

In other words, the people in Europe (whereas they are rarely asked about there opinions) do not want a transfer union, the ECB actually does not want a transfer union, the Deutsche Bank and other doe not want a transfer union, only you, dear Ansip, and the rest of your "supportive" European niminy-piminy clique wants this. Reply to the comment answer
~knut albers [30.03.2012, 12:16]
Even the Greeks themselves don't want this transfer union, I'd like to add. One only need to ask them.
~knut albers [30.03.2012, 12:41]
Knut, what exactly do you mean by the buzzword "transfer union"?
~Neo [30.03.2012, 14:22]
The term is explained here:

http://www.europeanfoundation.org/my_weblog/2011/02/european-union-as-transfer-union.html
~knut albers [02.04.2012, 13:06]
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Estonia receives three times more from EU budget than it pays to EU. In 2010 Estonia received 700 million euros more from EU than it paid to EU budget. So, Estonia does not support Greece at all WITH her own money. If worst scenario - if Greece does not pay its debts - Estonia only will get little less from EU than now. Reply to the comment answer
~Brux [30.03.2012, 15:08]
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We are world power with 278 Euros monthly salary, if you can find a job, and we will bail out every country on earth that needs our vast reserves of cash! We hold hands and sing folk songs and we have no envy, no drunks, no social problems, beautiful roads high pensions etc. We are a shining light of hope for all the world! Where are doomsday people now that critize Estonia?? Reply to the comment answer
~Well, [30.03.2012, 16:43]
Can it, Hiiumaa Man. The same old, same old was boring a year ago. I'm beginning to believe that you are still living in that tiny village you bought flats in and literally have nothing better to do than post idiotic comments here. Why don't you get drunk with the locals for a change?
~@HM [31.03.2012, 23:11]
That's fine. You're not obligated to read his posts. Some of us find it highly amusing and educational about life in Estonia.
~............... [01.04.2012, 02:44]
You find it entertaining to read the same EXACT words for over two years running? Do you also like to watch paint drying too? I bet that is really exciting, isn't it?
~@? [01.04.2012, 09:27]
Well he's only saying it like it is. If the situation hasn't changed, neither will what he has to say.
~>-( [01.04.2012, 15:04]
Things have changed. It's comments like yours that show you have not been in Estonia long or you left and still make comments on what you can no longer see. Today's situation is far better than things were here 3 years ago. A blind person can see that.
~In Plain Sight [01.04.2012, 15:36]
You are entitled to your opinion but there are no requirements on my part to respect it. I shall take my cue from my reading of Estonian media and from my own network of friends and family, which seems to portray that, while things are not necessarily worsening, they are certainly grim for a large part of the population. But I am pleased for you that on a daily basis you never see this and do not have to concern yourself about it.
~; [01.04.2012, 17:45]
Strange to see Estonians claiming us foreigners don't travel and don't know how things are in Estonia.

"Today's situation is far better than things were here 3 years ago"

I would really like to know how GNAWING inflation and drops in REAL wages of 15% are supposed to be BETTER?

Perhaps you don't travel at all, and the Estonian "better than" is just another overused buzzword rehearsed from Soviet propaganda times.

After all let's have some sense of tradition shall we??
~estonian nutters [01.04.2012, 20:20]
Debate is pointless. Estonia has its good and bad sides like every other democracy. You can't just say in a childish manner that "Estonia stinks".
~ned flanders [01.04.2012, 22:01]
"You can't just say in a childish manner that "Estonia stinks"."

And stock responses like, "Why don't you get drunk with the locals, Hiiumaa man?" are the mature standards we are expected to maintain, are they? Or are the comments only "childish" when they are negative?
~:D [01.04.2012, 22:16]
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Should we emigrate to a Jipsyland? Reply to the comment answer
~Jon [30.03.2012, 23:33]
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Of course, Brux is confusing the EU with the Eurozone.

It is entirely possible to be a member of one and not the other (as 10 countries are today), so it is perfectly reasonable to talk about the costs of the Euro in isolation from the benefits of EU membership.

And Greece really is "rich" in comparison with Estonia. According to the IMF, in 2011 GDP pc (PPP) was $27.624 in Greece and $19,375 in Estonia. Reply to the comment answer
~rob [31.03.2012, 13:18]
What does membership have to do with the fact that ten percent of Estonia's state budget consist of EU aid money. Greece is about the same. Greece is like a bigger version of Estonia and rest of the balts milking money from Paris and Berlin.
~karas piller [01.04.2012, 16:11]
"What does [Euro?] membership have to do with the fact that ten percent of Estonia's state budget consist of EU aid money."

Pretty much nothing. After all, they were getting that aid before 2011, and they would (probably) continue getting it if the Eurozone were to collapse tomorrow.
~rob [01.04.2012, 20:25]
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Unzip how have you helped them. Considering your size you have received more money from EU than they in a million years. Reply to the comment answer
~red flag balt rus 81 ikn [01.04.2012, 16:08]
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Saw the clip on CNN. He claims to have 70% exports to Finland & Sweden. Sure is mainly of cheap booze and smokes. there is a world beyond the Baltic Sea? Export this chap, he sucks. Reply to the comment answer
~Indiana Jones 2 [02.04.2012, 00:01]
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Sure, the money for Greece are named " loans ". But all of uns knows, they will never paid back, neither the so called " interest ".

But this isn´t a "real" transfer union, because the other union members only take loans for the weak partners, they will not get ( any longer )

In case that the obligations ( " Bürgschaften " ) will become valid, a sum of trillions ( billions in german ) have to be paid.

And will not.

In that case the € currency needs a " restart ", so to say....

Or: The ECB will print the needed money and we´ll see a moderate inflation between 5-10% a year and the moneyowner will pay the desbts slowly....but for sure....

It has been done this way a lot of times in history, nothing new, one time for each generation will be a nice quota :-)

Why: Its the politics business: Live today and pay later....voters like it.

blueice. Reply to the comment answer
~blueice [02.04.2012, 10:36]
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At first make finally absolutely clear: Estonia is NOT the fastest growing economy in the EU. I really do not know, why You still use this fairy tale (maybe to interest some potencial investors. I get every time upset, if I read such kind of subjective things.
But okay, Estonia has to help Greece, because a. Estonia is in the EU and b. Estonia is in the Euro-zone. Solidarity is needed. For the case, if Estonia would have the same problems like Greece, it would be quite happy, if the others support it. What would be, if Russia shows more interest to this country than now, and if the european partners would only flinch the shoulders and would say: Take it, or leave it? Reply to the comment answer
~scheileke [02.04.2012, 12:38]
You dream.
Russia isn't the slightest interested in Estonia, even in Soviet times Estonia survived on hand-outs, and the entire infrastructure of roads, drains, building construction and railways was built & maintained by them,- much as today, except it's now the EU picked up the tab.

Why would anyone want to subsidise a country that can't pay its way, but is so arrogant as to claim they're doing just fine.
~Russia today [02.04.2012, 13:04]
You so conveniently cherry pick history like so many of the pro-Russian myopic Estonia haters. Yes, most of the current infrastructure was built during the Soviet times but much of the resources (manpower, financial, material) was sourced from here. A most interesting fact that most Russians are not either aware of or conveniently ignore is that huge amounts of food were forcefully exported from Estonia to Leningrad and Leningrad region because the region was incapable of being self-sufficient in food production. The people there would have starved without this food source.
~An Inconvenient Fact [02.04.2012, 22:13]
Woah! People of Leningrad would have starved without Estonia? That's rich even for you propaganda guy.
~eesti keel patriot [02.04.2012, 23:01]
Nice one!LOL.

You will say next that Leningrad was built on a bog it's sinking into the Neva, and that the metro lines are so short of electricity they have to import that from Estonia too.

You have maybe had't heard that Estonia even imports cereals from Russia and Ukraine, because it can't make enough in its mosquito infested swamps and forest, and that it's only worthwhile dairy products are constantly going bankrupt and having to be rescued.

"20 Feb 2012 – A court has seized the shares of leading dairy producer Tere following a claim by trustees of the bankrupt holding company Luterma"

"The Estonia-based dairy group Tere that belongs to businessman Oliver Kruuda owes more than 600,000 euros in tax payments, and thus is among Estonia's 100 largest tax debtors, the Estonian news portal BBN reports"

"AS Luterma, an Estonian food and property company formerly named AS Kalev, was declared bankrupt by a court.........Luterma sold its Kalev Chocolate Factory, Estonia’s biggest candy maker, to Norway’s Orkla ASA (ORK) last May.

The shares of its Tere AS dairy subsidiary were moved to a representative account of the local unit of Nordea AB at the beginning of the year as loan collateral"
~inconvenient truths [02.04.2012, 23:16]
Feel free to post proof that I am wrong instead of making silly comments such as 'Nice one!LOL.' Even Russian texts acknowledge this as a fact.

Regarding the importation of grain, read ERR and see that Estonia is a net grain exporter. Besides, the age of the collective farm is over here. Again, you prove that you just cherry pick your news as well as your history.
~@inconvenient truths [03.04.2012, 00:04]
Look at Propaganda Guy's techniques. My goodness, you really have to watch yourself with this "shockworker"!

Can you all see what he has very cleverly done?

* He makes a bold assertion without providing ANY BACKING EVIDENCE whatsoever - that the people of Leningrad would have starved without Estonian food exports.

* Yet when somebody disputes this, THEY are obliged to "post PROOF that he is wrong".

See that, folks? See how craftily he RAISED the burden of proof on dissenting opinions to a higher threshold than he applied on himself?

It's the same devious techniques he uses when he claims that negative statistics are open to interpretation, negative commentary and opinion polls are meaningless YET we are expected to somehow attach more significance to his own subjective observations that "I look around and everything is fine".

I am frankly in open admiration for the superior techniques in obfuscation that this agent is trained in. Gosh, if I wasn't on the lookout for his techniques, I'd have missed it myself. They don't pay these propaganda guys down the ministry for nothing!
~:-[] [03.04.2012, 01:23]
"They don't pay these propaganda guys down the ministry for nothing!"

Btw, so much I know: It's a she, it's a single girl that uses different screen names here, insulting everyone that does not agree with her bossy "I know everything- you are my minions" superior opinions.

Or which guy would use screen names such as "angry bird"? Hands up who does, plz.
~knut albers [03.04.2012, 10:05]
The knowledge about exports from Estonia to the Soviet Union is so secretive that is openly published in the gymnaasium history textbooks on Estonia. Get one and read it for yourself like every student here does. If you can not read Estonian an English translation was published a few years ago.You can check the bookshops if there are still copies available.
~History [03.04.2012, 10:28]
It is your obligation to backup your allegations relevant to the issue with facts.

Name us a specific example, where the Leningrad region would have starved without forced food supply from Estonia, for instance, due to "incapable of being self-sufficient in food production."

We're waiting.
~knut albers [03.04.2012, 11:08]
I dont think anyone is going to scan textbooks into the computer to put on this site anytime soon so dont hold your breth
~@knut [03.04.2012, 11:13]
So Knut, who is it? Give us a name of that so called propaganda girl. Or to say it with your own words: "It is your obligation to backup your allegations relevant to the issue with facts."
~Whoa [03.04.2012, 11:21]
Piracy is not required here. A short reference and a brief narration in your own words is enough. Thanks in advance.
~knut albers [03.04.2012, 11:26]
"Give us a name of that so called propaganda girl."

For legal reasons, this is unfortunately not possible at this point, as there is already a criminal complaint in preperation on my part on this.
~knut albers [03.04.2012, 11:31]
Ah! I think we will wait as long as we are waiting for Eesti=no's claims against Estonia at the European Court for Human Rights:) (Just my guess)
~Whoa [03.04.2012, 11:48]
Don't bother to wait. I wouldn't provide personal information in the public domain anyway. This goes directly to proper professional hands only.
~knut albers [03.04.2012, 11:59]
Didn't fully get the exchange above with Albers, but the important part seems to be that Propaganda Guy, who challenges OTHERS to provide proof, has come up with convenient excuses why he himself will not provide proof to back up his statements. Not even one link, citation or quote.

I must say, standards at the Ministry are slipping!
~:-[] [03.04.2012, 15:11]
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Not an expert by any means here but:-
I can spot a trend.

YES, as usual Estonia increased production of grain products because of EU EXPORT SUBSIDY, to become a net exporter for the 1st time only in 2011.

Retail sector sales were not included in the figures to show origins of products.

"Estonian grain exports during the previous crop year exceeded imports 1.7 times by volume, but as grain and products with lower value-added made up the main part of export the trade balance was negative."

The Arable land (% of land area) in Estonia was 14.06 in 2009, according to a World Bank report, published in 2010.

The Forest area (% of land area) in Estonia was last reported at 52.30 in 2010 Reply to the comment answer
~anyhow who cares? [03.04.2012, 03:05]
Regarding CAP subsidies, France's agricultural sector would completely collapse without them. Very many EU countries benefit from the scheme and in fact, it is saving European agriculture in general.
~CAP [03.04.2012, 10:31]
Yes usual Estonian disinformation service

"just look at them!
It sounds like straight out of a KGB textbook.

When the CAP was invented, the EU was small, and France has contributed more to the EU than any of these moaners in eastern Europe.
Also French agriculture is one of the best and most diverse in the whole EU.

I mean how many fortune 500 companies are in Estonia?
How many trains or planes or cars/trucks do they make?
Do they produce ANY quality food at all?

"He who pays the piper call the tune".
~france [03.04.2012, 11:40]
It is that smug attitude that led to the current euro crisis. Is France enjoying it? It create it with that attitude that it could flout the rules. Unfortunately, other countries decided what is good for the goose is also good for the gander and followed suit. Which country recently was downgraded? What is France's government debt level now?
~@France [03.04.2012, 18:50]
Actually I wasn't holding France up as model of virtue.
It's just you CONTINUALLY sidestep the real issues.

Estonia doesn't actually do much more than provide cheap (semi skilled) labour as a pool to an aggressive band of nordic countries who could never miss out on a good opportunity.

Estonian arguments just come completely unstuck when they try to criticise a founder member of the EU that produces pretty much everything a modern country needs...Heck Thompson and Moulinex used even to be household names, just like Siemens, Brandt and Thyssen were to Germany.

Could yu kindly a/ Either shut up,or b/ show you understand what the argument is about by at least answering to the subject.

If it is proposed that Estonia doesn't make a single motor car, train or aeroplane, kindly just say YES, and it would be NICE if we LEARNT one day how to do such things, instead of continually boring us with sh..t about how BADLY OFF France is, despite its very considerable wealth.
Who are you to tell anyone to shut up? A failed expat who couldn't even make it in Ida Virumaa and all you can do is deflect subjects by whinging about how life and Estonian authorities are so unfair to you, making up a family that doesn't exist, claiming to live in Siberia, Estonia and France/Luxembourg during the same year and finally, the mythological and nearly legendary so-called lawsuit against the Estonian government. Your arguments seem to mostly go back to TGVs, cars, etc, which is odd as none of those have any bearing on business here.

You constantly make statements that make one wonder if you ever actually lived here at all because according to you Estonia produces almost nothing, exports almost nothing, imports loads of everything and somehow manages to pay for it all with the government having one of the lowest debts around. La La Land is a pretty nice place, isn't it?
~@esti=NO [03.04.2012, 22:17]
OOOOh! Estonian Propaganda Guy is mad now! Has to resort to personal insults like "failed expat"! NB STILL waiting for a link to the statement that Estonian food supply saved Leningrad. Or is it easier to start focusing on Eesti=No and moving the conversation away, rather than providing the proof necessary? After all you are the one who is always droning, "Proof please."

Also, since per capita Estonia gets more EU structural funds than any other country except Luxembourg, I'm not surprised that they can balance the books.
~:-[] [03.04.2012, 23:19]
I will have access to the book tomorrow (it took some time to track down a copy in English) and will post the name and relevant page numbers. While the book doesn't say that Leningrad/St Petersburg would have starved without Estonian food imports, it isn't a leap of logic to assume the Russians weren't buying grain, meat and alcohol from Estonia for the last 200 years to just dump it all into the Neva.

About the insults against esti=NO, we have been going at it for years now and he gives as good as gets. If I didn't throw a few at him now and then, he would think I had fallen ill.
~Food [03.04.2012, 23:52]
In other words you just made your own conclusions in an out of context page that can be interpeted in so many ways, eh propaganda guy.
~rk ex work sort ikn [04.04.2012, 00:57]
that post pretty much sums it up.

Doesn't need further comment really.
I am curious to know how "failure" is supposed to be measured in a village like Tallinn?

Unzip earns how much???
~estonian nutters [04.04.2012, 01:38]
You mean like taking newspaper statements like 'children go to bed hungry' and then saying over and over again that children are STARVING? Or because Estonia receives structural funds and CAP subsidies that the country is drowning in debt like Greece?
~Food [04.04.2012, 08:03]
Actually Estonian children ARE living in poverty, which is why Estonia is getting food aid.

"Estonia has spoken out against the decision by six larger EU countries to block renewal of a major food aid program that benefits the needy.

Estonia has used the program, which dates from 1987, to bolster its own social safety net, providing 2.5 million euros of food aid over five years."
~Wealthy Estonia needs food aid [04.04.2012, 08:46]
"While the book doesn't say that Leningrad/St Petersburg would have starved without Estonian food imports, (...)"

In other words: you lied about this "inconvenient fact".

To be a liar AND a threatener, PLUS to go after people's personal lives (= stalking by observating them and revieweing all comments for months in detail) - there is no excuse for this unless you are working undercover for KAPO (and FYI, even then you are not exempt from personal liabilities for your actions done).

Nicely put, you are far worse than "Esti=No", who is at least not stalking on people and you are acting far more unprofessional than him, in case it's part of your "job".
~knut albers [04.04.2012, 09:40]
While I do not agree with everything the other poster says, his/her logic is sound. If a city/country/region imports large amounts of food over a sustained period of time, then it is logical that the food is needed to be eaten. If the food is removed, then hunger or worse, starvation, will result unless a new source is secured. What is wrong with that logic? Why else would the food be imported from Estonia if not for human consumption?

What are you on about talking about stalking? That's the first time on this comment section that I have seen someone talk about that.
~@knut [04.04.2012, 10:20]
"What is wrong with that logic?"

There is nothing wrong with that logic unless one refers to a specific case that does not exist as it was done here.

"What are you on about talking about stalking?"

Virtually any unwanted contact between two people that directly or indirectly communicates a threat or places the victim in fear can be considered stalking, but here people are observated over months in detail with misinformation provided about their personal lives. So, it is not just stalking, it is a criminal offense we are speaking here about related to harassment and intimidation in a legal sense and is taken care of accordingly.
~knut albers [04.04.2012, 12:02]
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BBN: Please, change or close your comment section. Reply to the comment answer
~Bored [04.04.2012, 08:20]
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That logic is the same that was applied in the other case about hunger in Estonia. The various posters are using the same methods. To condemn only one gives the impression that you are taking sides in their argument. I certainly don't want to get involved. It seems to be hot enough already.

Has someone been making personal threats to you on this comment section or anywhere else? Do they have personal information about you such as your real name, address, mobile number etc? Reply to the comment answer
~@knut [04.04.2012, 13:18]
I understand your point, but I am not responsible for the comments of others, I am only responsible for my own comments here and can not make statements on behalf of others and don't have time to write on all junk the other three frequent posters are pulling down here day in and days out under every changing user names, so I have to select on what's most important to me and that may look like "taking sides", but it is not my intention.
~knut albers [05.04.2012, 00:04]
"Has someone been making personal threats to you on this comment section or anywhere else?"

Here (to refer to a few of them):

~angry_bird [05.03.2012, 16:50] under the article "What is hindering your business in Estonia?"

~Knut is a nutter [20.03.2012, 19:15]; ~talking out of your a... [22.03.2012]; 13:06]; ~;-} [22.03.2012, 17:19]; ~:-} [22.03.2012, 17:28]; The riddler [22.03.2012, 18:34]; ~:-} [22.03.2012, 19:04]; ~The riddler [22.03.2012, 19:16], ~:-} [22.03.2012, 19:34]; ~The riddler [23.03.2012, 09:33] under the article "Estonia tops eurozone inflation list"

~laut bond razor [26.03.2012, 22:07] under the article "Tallinn to have free public transport from 2013"

~@asswipe=knut [07.01.2011, 21:00] under the article "Estonian consumer prices up 5.7% in December yoy"

at ERR (two examples):

"5aturn 03.04.2012 21:12" under the article "Little Revolutions"

"tola 31.08.2011 13:41" under the article "Tallinn Activists Want Kindergartens, Not Partisan TV"

Granted, I do not care much about the strong language, but when personal and confidential information is provided on some of these and other comments, things get serious and require other measurements than a proper respond to that or simply ignore them (especially considering the amount of such comments by the same two and a half men for a longer period of time).

This also disturbs the public order, and as BBN has done nothing against such actions (plus the regular spam comments), it bring this portal down, maing it a gloating zone.

Then one should also not be surprised if there are only a handful of commentators left and, at worst, that no one wants to advertize because of that.
~knut albers [05.04.2012, 10:45]
Not to forget comments such as "~estonian nutters [05.04.2012, 10:21]" under this article, that are even more serious as defamation and insults against persons in public office is an individual provision in the Estonian Penal Code and altough I do not agree with many statements of Ms. Ansip, I would say that messages, such as "the sun shines out of Ansip's ass", is undisputable one of them.
~knut albers [05.04.2012, 11:01]
Mr. Ansip, I meant.
~knut albers [05.04.2012, 11:13]
Dear Mr. Albers,

I feel sorry that you felt threatend by unserious games like: "Find a thread without comments of Knut Albers". I found a few. And that is a threat or offending? Wow.

What is "Not with you typical of a small-minded anon person. My guess.
~knut albers [21.03.2012, 09:34]? " "Small minded anon person" belongs to not insulting expressions? Even it was not me who was insulted, but I can see that it was insulting...
What I want to say is: I agree with you completely that the behaviour (in the meaning of content, writing etc.) on this board is far from serious. What I find interesting is, that you believe your are totally innocent. The last term refers to the quotation above in this text. I confirm that you do not act like Eesti=No (and his other nicknames and supporters).
I also agree with bored in this thread.
~The riddler [05.04.2012, 11:45]
It was clear that this sort of counterstatements would come now, but simply evaluate the principle of cause and effect. If someone offends me, I will defend myself in a proper response to that and a language (I assume) they can understand.

In that sense, yes, I admit I was wrong with that assumption that this would make things for the better here.

The riddler, what you simply did with your comments stated above is called defamation.

It is tolerable once, twice, but not forever.

What comes to "Eesti=No" and the other individual, I do not really know what to do with them as one can ignore them or not - they still come back all over the place again, insulting persons in public office, the people of Estonia, the Estonian nation and other commenters here on a frequent level.

I admit that you, The riddler does not do that all the time and faux pas happens to everyone, also to me, so the apology is accepted.

But for the other two that do that on a frequent level (and in case of "Esti=No" for half a decade now or since 2008)?

I mean that is extremely bitter. Since there are virtually (almost) no other voices present here, it also gives a very wrong impression about the foreign communities in Estonia, since they even show a lower standard in compare to what is critized by them about Estonia and "the" Estonians all the time.
~knut albers [05.04.2012, 12:27]
"The riddler, what you simply did with your comments stated above is called defamation."

Sorry, I am referring to your comments about "find a thread without comments of Knut Albers", not your comment in this thread.
~knut albers [05.04.2012, 12:42]
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